Chinese sub slams US destroyer’s sonar near Scarborough shoal

From Inquirer online:

WASHINGTON (Agence France Presse)– A Chinese submarine collided with an underwater sonar array towed by the destroyer USS John S. McCain off the coast of the Philippines, CNN television said, quoting a US official who said it was an “inadvertent encounter.”

The array, used to locate underwater sounds, was damaged in the incident, but the military official said the sub and ship did not collide.

The US Navy did not consider the event a case of deliberate harassment, CNN reported.

In March this year two tense standoffs between US and Chinese vessels in the South China Sea triggered accusations by the United States that China was behaving in an “aggressive” manner.

China later said a US naval vessel involved in the incident with Chinese fishing boats in the Yellow Sea had violated maritime law, and urged the United States to take steps to avoid a repetition.

June 13, 2009 9:36 pm  Tags: ,   Posted in: Foreign Affairs, South China Sea

104 Responses

  1. Ellen - June 13, 2009 9:45 pm

    From Atty Harry Roque of Center Law Philippines:

    The collision between a Chinese submarine and a sonar being tugged by a US frigate (near Scarborough shoal) highlights the national security hazard of the new baseline law.

    Under the new law, all submarines and military ships can now sail through all our waters.Until the new law, these vessels can only sail through our territorial seas.

    Worse,the question is why was there Chinese sub under water. Under UNCLOS, sub must surface when in the exercise of innocent passage. Was it an accident or was it subtailing the frigate?

  2. Ellen - June 13, 2009 10:32 pm

    From a diplomatic source who asked not to be named because he said it’s the AFP spokesman who should issue a statement:

    USS Mac Cain is part of the US navy ships participating in CARAT 09, a maritime exercises between Philippines and US elements, which started last 21 May. CARAT exercises include community relation projects.

  3. bitchevil - June 13, 2009 11:05 pm

    The incident has given us a picture of the days to come. The Philippines like most of the third world countries shall become the battlefield of two super powers.

  4. Mumbaki - June 14, 2009 12:00 am

    Iyan kasi ang problema ang government natin puppet ng americans and we ally with them,diba dapat galit tayo sa kanila dahil sa mga atrocities nila especially Balangiga Massacre,

  5. Jake Las Pinas - June 14, 2009 1:28 am

    The chinese probably deliberately collided with the sonar array to expose u.s. tactics in the south china sea. The chinese dont want these arrays so their subs can move freely. The chinese subs are noisy and can be heard easily by the us. US subs on the other hand are silent and can be basking in beaches of boracay or the port of shanghai even before you know they were there.

  6. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 2:20 am

    “Worse,the question is why was there Chinese sub under water.”

    Because you cannot detect them.

    Even if the waters legally belonged to RP, there’s no way you would know that there were subs in that part of the world unless RP had subs too and could detect them.

    Very difficult to detect subs if they don’t want to be detected. If they are detected, the sub commander’s career is over — he will be relegated to a desk job if he is not forced to leave the service.

    So, Ellen, it’s not really a problem. As I’ve often said in previous posts, there certainly are several subs plying that route unknown to RP. Malaysian and Singaporean subs’ playground is located in Philippine waters. They’d be daft not to do it.

  7. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 2:22 am

    “Under the new law, all submarines and military ships can now sail through all our waters.Until the new law, these vessels can only sail through our territorial seas.”

    Even if the law were in RP’s favour, forget it — you xan’t detect, you can’t object!

  8. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 2:24 am

    The most important thing is for our fishermen not to be rammed by subs when subs surface — one of the hazards facing fishermen’s boats (coz they’re so tiny) is accident. And when a sub hits a fishing boat, it just dives back again and you’ll never know what happened.

  9. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 3:27 am

    If our RP Navy cannot stop foreign ordinary vessels in trespassing her territory, what more subs?

  10. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 3:39 am

    “Until the new law, these vessels can only sail through our territorial seas.”

    Ellen,

    Were the Chinese and US sub in territorial waters or not?

    Territorial waters means 12 miles from shore. In prinicple, if a sub is sailing through RP territorial waters, they must ask for permission. In principle again, encroaching upon another nation’s territorial waters (within the 12 mile zone) without authorisation is an act of war.

    An accident happened so we got alerted to presence of Chinese sub. Otherwise, we would have never known…

    If the Chinese sub was within our EEZ waters, RP wouldn’t be able to protest either anyway. EEZ waters doesn’t mean that we could halt traffic; we simply take advantage of the economic produce and economic advatages those water limits provide us but any tom dick and harry sub and ship can do as they please.

    So much ado over nothing really.

  11. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 3:42 am

    If the Chinese ub had been within our 12 mile limit (RP territorial waters) without permission, as I said, in principle that was an act of war… what can we do about it? Can we bomb the Chinese sub next time it does that again? Hehe!

    We can’t do anything — NADA!!!

    Gloria has sold us to the Chinese in the first place so even if we scream to high heavens, they’d simply laugh at us.

  12. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 3:52 am

    “The chinese probably deliberately collided with the sonar array to expose u.s. tactics in the south china sea. “

    Pigs might fly!

    I don’t believe the Chinese sub deliberately did it. It would be the height of stupidity to do something like that — imagine if the sonar had been caught by the sub propellers? What a catastrophe it would have been for the sub and the crew. What would they gain by ramming the sonar?

    I’m pretty sure that the Chinese sub knew the Americans were there and were trying desperately to look for them. Could be that when they finally detected the US Sub, it was too late to maneuver correctly so it hit the US sonar. In any case, I may think badly of the Chinese but the Chinese sub cdr didn’t do it on purpose. If Chinese Submarine Service policies are like in the West, that Chinese sub cdr would be sent home in less than 24 hrs. (Or maybe the Chinese Politburo will get him shot for having been detected — heheh!)

    Could be too that the US sub cdr made a wrong maneuver when it detected the Chinese sub and it was too late to do anything about it and so Chinse sub hit sonar.

    In any case, it’s very likely that both committed a certain amount of error.

    (Poor US sub cdr — can tell you that what happened wouldn’t go down well for him in the US; his submarine career may not be over but boy, he’s gonna be in hot waters… He’s got to explain, why he detect the sub early enough or worse, did he make a bad maneouver — his promotion will be in jeopardy.)

  13. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 3:57 am

    Oooops, “why he DIDN’T detect the sub early enough (to avoid the collision with his sonar) or wose, did he detect the Chinese sub early enough but made a faulty maneuver?”

    (Hah! Either way, his goose is now half-cooked!)

  14. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 4:12 am

    Ooops, sorry, I didn’t realise — I thought there was another US sub involved!!! So, it was a destroyer that was towing the sonar. (Ok, forget what I said about the US sub cdr being in hot waters!)

    In other words, fault lies completely in the Chinese sub — the sub cdr was following the destroyer and didn’t see the sonar. Shit! In navy terms, the Chinese sub cdr FUCKED UP!!! Hehehe! Just fantastic news for the US; shows the unprofessionalims of Chinese submarines. The officers in the Chinese sub must be sleeping! Hihihi!

    Anyway, my husband says it’s inconceivable that the Chinese sub did it on purpose — if they had meant to ram the sonar on purpose, it would have been extremely stupid of them (just as I said earlier) because they would have given away their position, would’ve shown extreme unprofessionalism (already by ramming the sonar showed bad subamrinership). Subs are supposed to do covert operations and are not supposed to be detected.

  15. chi - June 14, 2009 4:48 am

    Shit! In navy terms, the Chinese sub cdr FUCKED UP!!! Hehehe!-Anna

    Made in china kasi! Bwahahahaha!!!

  16. neonate - June 14, 2009 6:36 am

    Bravo!!! AdeBrux. Your assertions in # 6, 7 and 8 above are my sentiments exactly! But in #10, and 11-14, who would ask permission of a contemptible mendicant? (Ditto): So much ado over nothing really.

  17. Gabriela - June 14, 2009 7:14 am

    This is so embarrassing to the Philippine government. it exposes its inutility. No wonder the AFP hasn’t said anything.

  18. neonate - June 14, 2009 7:16 am

    Atty Harry undoubtedly is a brilliant advocate of many popular issues that rocketed him to stellar status. But, I sense a tad of aggrandizing that may be the seminal twitches of a bid for the Senate in 2010. Testing the waters, not with both feet I hope.

  19. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 7:17 am

    The question is: What’s the US ship or destroyer doing at Subic? Had it not allegedly collided with the Chinese Sub, we wouldn’t know that a US destroyer was roaming around our territory. Well, everyone knows that the US military (air, navy and ground troops) are around the country for a long time now since the closure of the US bases.

  20. Jake Las Pinas - June 14, 2009 8:29 am

    That is what the sonar array is for – to detect subs. The chinese knew they were they being traced but they cant do anything so they just rammed it. Remember the us spy plane that was forced to land in china? The chinese couldnt shoot it down so what did they do, they rammed it and told everybody it was an accident.

  21. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 8:47 am

    “The chinese knew they were they being traced but they cant do anything so they just rammed it.”

    Heheh! Yeah! The Chinese sub was trying hard to avoid detection, but what do they do? They ram the sonar on purpose! Vadavooom! They get detected. (Now, the US captain is now grinning ear to ear — he’s just “captured” a chinese submarine!)

    Maybe the Chinese sub cdr had eaten something that didn’t go down well so, he got pissed off and said, “Dammit, I’m sick and tired of hiding, so here’s what you do guys, we’ll do it in style, we’ll ram the bloody sonar so the Americans will find us and be done with it.” Heheh!

  22. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 8:52 am

    Neonate,

    Ditto that again too: “So much ado over nothing really.”

  23. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 9:09 am

    These things happen all the time — it’s called a cat and mouse game.

    The Chinese was “hunting” the US destroyer — par for the course. US destroyer fields sonar for a variety of reason, to detect underwater movement — par for the course. Chinese sub didn’t see the sonar on time and rammed sonar accidentally or perhaps, detected sonar but did faulty maneuver so hit the sonar.

    US destroyer jubilant, “caught” a sub – “Yopeeee! Hurray!”, Chinese sub dives or leaves — she’s been detected, shamefaced and all.

    But ramming on purpose? To give her position away when she’s desperately trying to hide and not be detected?

    These minor mishaps happen all the time underwater. It’s media that make a mountain of a moehill.

    What’s important here and what we want to know or should know is where precisely the mishap occured? If its within our 12 mile limit, i.e., RP territorial waters, then it’s an act of war (unless of course, the Chinese received prior authorisation from Gloria personally) and we should be sending a note verbale to Beijing (which will be useless because Beijing will deny it and will probably laugh at Romulo) so our best bet in order to have exact location is from our esteemed ally, the US, who will (hopefully) tell us where it happened and perhaps, we wouldn’t feel so violated anymore.

  24. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 9:12 am

    “What’s the US ship or destroyer doing at Subic?”

    I think Ellen has already answered the question (no. 2 comment).

  25. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 9:17 am

    “CARAT exercises include community relation projects.”

    Yeah! US crew invite kids to play basketball with them. They also play cowboy-Indian games with our navy guys on board. They also show off to our poor navy the latest equipment they’ve got and from time to time, they make our navy guys mouth water so much that our Navy folks begin to dream impossible dreams, eg., Philippine Navy needs a hospital ship? Whoa! Easy now, sailor!

  26. saxnviolins - June 14, 2009 9:19 am

    Carat is Kapampangan meaning “to shag” or to f_ _ k.

    That is what the US navy’s community activity in Olongapo.

  27. Ellen - June 14, 2009 9:26 am

    Atty Harry Roque raised the matter of the new baseline law which excluded Scarborough shoal near Zambalez (CNN refers the location as “near Subic bay” which is also correct because Subic is in Zambales) from the main territory and classified it a regime of islands.

    I’ll have to review the repercussions of the qualification of Scarborough shoal as regime of island but I remember that Sen. Antonio Trillanes IV objected to that.

    In Trillanes’ baseline bill (he was the first one to file the bill defining the country’s archipelagic baseline) which was not considered by Sen. Santiago’s foreign affairs committee, Scarborough shoal is part of the main territory.

    As part of the main territory the measurement of maritime zones starts from there: territorial sea (12 nautical miles from the baseline), contiguous zone (24 nm), economic exclusive zone (200 nm), continental shelf (200 nm) and extended continental shelf (350 nm).

    As “regime of islands”, from Scarborough shoal the Philippines can only claim jurisdication up to 24nm as contiguous zone. It is not entitled to continental shelf and extended continental shelf.

    What are the country’s rights and jurisdication under each of the maritime regime, we have to read UNCLOS.


    Related story: Trillanes calls baseline la a “sellout”

    http://www.verafiles.org/index.php/news/184-trillanes-calls-baseline-bill-a-sell-out

  28. Ellen - June 14, 2009 9:30 am

    But as Anna pointed out, even if we have those rights, what can we do? We don’t have the equipment to detect intrusions even if they are right under our nose.

    And even if we know we have been intruded into, do we have the political will to protect our sovereignty?

  29. Ellen - June 14, 2009 9:42 am

    CARAT means Cooperation Afloat Readiness and Training (CARAT) exercises.

    I got this from Anna’s link about Phil Navy planning to acquire a hospital ship.

  30. Ellen - June 14, 2009 9:48 am

    Neonate: “Atty Harry undoubtedly is a brilliant advocate of many popular issues that rocketed him to stellar status. But, I sense a tad of aggrandizing that may be the seminal twitches of a bid for the Senate in 2010. Testing the waters, not with both feet I hope.”

    Neonate, one of Atty. Roque’s expertise is international law. He is the only lawyer I know who has followed closely the baseline law.

    I differ with him in his views about the baseline law but as far as knowledge of the subject, aside from Atty. Henry Bensurto, executive director of the Commission on Maritime Affairs at the DFA, I know of no one who is more knowlegeable on the subject.

  31. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 10:22 am

    Miriam Santiago also brags that she’s an expert on international law. Where is she now? What does she say about the incident?

  32. Ellen - June 14, 2009 11:42 am

    From Navy Spokesman Col. Edgard Arevalo:

    There was no request from the US to allow entry of its warship (in Philippine waters). We have no exercise that will justify its presence here.

  33. Ellen - June 14, 2009 11:44 am

    It looks like the Philippine Navy and the DFA have not gotten their act together yet.

  34. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 11:59 am

    In the meantime, the world is closely watching the development in Iran where riot protests are currently going on after the election. Guess who instigated and supported the riots?

  35. stingray - June 14, 2009 12:09 pm

    There are possible reasons why these things happens, evidently there’s an ongoing Mil Exercise likewise mass action against the Fucked gov’t and/or possible 1st family extrication medium if the situation flare-up too much.. Or probably because both U.S. and China were deared by Gloria, they might be staging to distract the battered mass..

    I strongly AGREE with Atty Roque’s comment:

    Worse, the question is why was there Chinese sub “under water”. Under UNCLOS, “sub must surface when in the exercise of innocent passage”. Was it an accident or was it subtailing the frigate?

  36. josé miguel - June 14, 2009 12:14 pm

    Yes AdeBrux, why should there be so much ado over nothing? Why should there be so much Filipino debate over the defining of the limits of our territory? The Americans have already their camp inside our military camp in Zamboanga. Not even our soldiers in that military camp can freely enter in that American camp inside our camp. When anyone of the Americans raped our Filipina, were we able to jail him in our territory? Had we ever jailed one throughout the history of American rapes of our Filipinas?

    In the 1930s and beyond, we tried to control the entry of the Chinese in our country, and tried to arrest their advance towards our economic bases. We never succeeded because the Americans with her mighty military behind, intervened to provide legal protection to the Chinese. Many of us Filipinos have already been dislodged from our economic bases. When we tried to recover our retail bases in the 1920s, their cloned Philippine Constabulary intervened. When we tried to establish legal barriers by limiting certain businesses only to those who are Filipino citizens, many of the papers stating ownership of Filipino citzenship fell into the hands of the Chinese. Thus, many of the original Filipinos among us still remained displaced from our economic bases until today. In fact many Chinese are continuing to enter our territory up to today increasing their population while many of us original Filipinos are leaving our home if only to find food for our family.

    To add insult to injury, our government led by someone whose claim to legitimacy over the presidency is the continued refusal of evidences of GMA in the tampering of the 2004 election results to be presented to an investigation, collaborates with these foreign invasion.

    I again quote the strategy of Sun Tzu: “Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy’s troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.”

    How true this is even today. Many of our personnel in the military have already been involved in the killings of students, ordinary folks, women and journalists. Our supposedly Armed Forces of the Philippines top brass continues to wage war started by that American invasion of 1899, not against the foreign invaders but, the brother Filipinos among us resisting the continuation of that invasion. Instead of arresting the perpetrators of handing over of our assets to the foreigners- am act of treason, they arrest those among us who resist the perpetrator of this act of treason.

    But there is hope IF we Filipinos can be made to be aware of this. Only then can we start debating over claims of our territorial limits

  37. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 12:16 pm

    Submarine is of course under water. We should not only ask why there was Chinese sub at Subic but also ask why there was a US destroyer there. Whenever there’s a controversial incident like that, what we get are all speculations. The truth is, the Philippines is no longer owned by the Philippine government under this evil Arroyo regime. The Philippine is now owned by foreign countries like a meat being shared by many dogs.

  38. Mumbaki - June 14, 2009 12:31 pm

    After the Arroyo regime ends let’s kick the puppets out!

  39. neonate - June 14, 2009 7:23 pm

    Ellen, I am aware of Atty Harry Roque’s sagacity and passion for the truth. My remark is wild speculation and a wishful taunt for him to take a stab for a Senate seat. The Senate could stand some improvement.

  40. neonate - June 14, 2009 8:08 pm

    Comity of nations is the essence of the UN. Even the International Court of Justice litigations proceed only upon mutual consent of adversarial nations. Territorial limits under International Law was set at three miles, the range of cannon balls during the sailing ship era, later extended to twelve miles after WW1 when Dreadnaught shells reached this range. Clearly, it is presumed that a territory is dependent on a nation’s ability to defend it, especially if under claim by several countries. Prevailing geopolitics must thereby be considered by prudent nations in setting the baselines (remember Kuwait and Saddam Hussein).

  41. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 8:34 pm

    José Miguel,

    Excellent post – and I agree completely. Fellow filipinos must be aware of these events to perhaps help them find their own perspective with regard to nationhood.

    But sad to say, no matter how loudly we claim that we possess the virtue of self-sacrifice, i.e., Filipinos are prepared to go to unchartered territories, unknown waters, etc. to do the lowliest jobs to feed our loved ones, but what many of us don’t realise is that this virtue of self-sacrifice is in fact another term for a cultural flaw otherwise known as “bahala na”, typical laid back trait — perhaps it’s because we were tamed for 400 years and another 100 years by foreign masters that we can no longer distinguish between what virtue is from cultural flaw.

    And this flaw has induced us to being passive. Passivity breeds false pride. We Filipinos have no moral pride — we have false pride. So artificial false pride is that we no longer know when or how to distinguish false pride from genuine moral pride.

  42. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 8:47 pm

    Ellen,

    “From Navy Spokesman Col. Edgard Arevalo:

    There was no request from the US to allow entry of its warship (in Philippine waters). We have no exercise that will justify its presence here.”

    Is that so? Geez, this is getting more and more interesting. If Arevealo made this official declaration, and I have no reason not to believe him, then folks we are being taken for a ride by our own DFA.

    But before we all cry bloody murder, we must determine where the mishap took place… is it within the our territorial waters, i.e., within the 12-mile zone or outside that limit?

    If the mishap occurred on high seas, we can’t really say anything.

    But even if they were a bit outside our 12 mile zone but within our EEZ zone, I would have expected the Americans to inform us of their presence in the vicinity as a matter of courtesy at the very least, we being one of their non-major NATO allies!

    In theory, they could do as they damn well please if they were on high seas but because they were in the vicinity, shit, what’s “a phone call” to the FOIC (heh!)? Shows, these Americans don’t respect anybody, least of all the Philippine Navy!)

  43. saxnviolins - June 14, 2009 10:04 pm

    Read the incisive analysis of this blogger:

    http://www.informationdissemination.net/2009/06/cat-and-mouse-in-south-china-sea.html

    There is no info about the blogger, but the blog indicates that he is/was a military professional.

    Got a kick from one of the commenters. What was the submarine doing in PI waters? Smuggling money for the Philippine government and Chinese oligarchs.

    What is funny is that it is probable; not this instance, but as a general proposition.

  44. saxnviolins - June 14, 2009 10:09 pm

    The sonar array is used to “listen” for sounds underwater. It is a means of detecting submarine activity. The sub, smashed the sonar array, and damaged it, but not the frigate. That renders the frigate unable to further “listen” to sounds.

    This is the choice paragraph:

    First, if the USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) had its towed sonar deployed off the coast of the Philippines, then she was actively searching for a submarine. It is not normal behavior for the US Navy to tow around an expensive towed sonar in the littorals off a country with no submarines like the Philippines. That suggests the USS John S. McCain (DDG-56) knew there was a Chinese submarine in the area, then deployed the towed sonar, and it was at that time a PLAN submarine hit the sonar.

  45. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 10:37 pm

    Now Washington is saying the collision happened outside of RP water. So what? For sure, it happened close to RP territory if they claim it’s outside of RP water. Well, why were they there (US and China ships)?

  46. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:14 pm

    Re: “It is not normal behavior for the US Navy to tow around an expensive towed sonar in the littorals off a country with no submarines like the Philippines.”

    Of course, US destroyer detected underwater movement and decided to listen. Chinese sub must be just below periscope depth, stationary and hard as they tried not to make a noise or be seen, US “saw” something. So US destroyer decided to drop sonar. Destroyer must have been really excited at the thought of being finally able to “catch” a sub — this is a normal cat and mouse game between skimmers or targets (as subs prefer to call surface ships) and subs.

    Nothing abnormal there. “Skimmers” (or “targets”) , particularly destroyers do that as part of operations when they are on highly sensitive territorial waters, i.e., where the Chinese or the Russians or whoever may be (even allies). It is a feather in the cap of a skimmer to be able to report that they “saw”, “detected” a sub and if they could name the sub, that’s like being awarded a “gold” medal for the skimmer’s captain.

  47. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:17 pm

    Hmmm… “Now Washington is saying the collision happened outside of RP water.”

    Oh well, what could they say? Anyway, easy for PN to confirm what Washington said simply. PN should know depth range of our territorial waters. Subs cannot operate in shallow waters.

  48. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:18 pm

    Same for destroyer…

  49. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:33 pm

    Why were those two there?

    Frankly, question should be why not? The presence of the US destroyer and the PLA sub in the vicinity is part of the entire super powers’ military cat and mouse game — this is not the first time nor will it be the last time. The Philippines is a speck of dust in the scheme of things, more so today with Gloria at the helm of a nation with only a bathtub navy to boast of.

    You can’t blame the Chinks for “to checking out” US destroyer’s presence and to keep an eye on her.

    Shit, the “intruder” in this case, if intruder there should be, is the US “target”, after all she’s far from home base… the Chink is in her element, like a fish in the water (pun intended), which is South Asia.

  50. Jake Las Pinas - June 14, 2009 11:34 pm

    You cant hide from a sonar array and you usually try to avoid it. Its like a net. The chinese rammed it because that is the only means to stop the sonar array from doing its job and get away from it. The chinese captain did the right thing. He was seen but was not captured. They cant fire a weapon, thats like declaring war. the chinese claim that the shoals belong to them historically. The shoals are more than 200 kms from luzon, way beyond the EEZ.

  51. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:35 pm

    “They cant fire a weapon, thats like declaring war.”

    That’s the last thing those two will do…

  52. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:37 pm

    “The shoals are more than 200 kms from luzon, way beyond the EEZ.”

    Aha! So they were on high seas! In that case, Philippines need not squeak… Out of their range.

  53. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:44 pm

    By the way, I doubt very much US destroyer would have captured the Chinese sub even if it could’ve which I doubt it would’ve. We’re in peace time and in international waters.

    When I wrote about US destroyer “capturing” sub, it was to me just a figure of speech. At this stage, it’s all about playing a cat and mouse game, unlike during the Cold War when it was always “all systems go.”

  54. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:50 pm

    What would have been really exciting and more interesting is if the “collission” happened between 2 subs, just like what happened between
    between a French sub and a UK sub recently.

  55. bitchevil - June 14, 2009 11:52 pm

    As Nokor continues to threaten the world with her nuke capability, expect foreign powers to be very active in the Pacific.

  56. AdeBrux - June 14, 2009 11:56 pm

    “expect foreign powers to be very active in the Pacific.”

    Couldn’t agree more! South Asia will be the playground of those “superpowers.”

    I think the UK already deployed a destroyer in the area as early as a few weeks ago…

  57. ellen - June 15, 2009 12:38 am

    SnV, thanks for the link to informationdissemination.net

  58. Ellen - June 15, 2009 12:49 am

    Can somebody please tell me what’s ASW mentioned in the infromation dissemination article?

  59. bitchevil - June 15, 2009 1:18 am

    And in the near future, the North Artic shall be an area of conflict among the Morth America powers. Russia, Canada, US…

  60. Ellen - June 15, 2009 1:23 am

    Here’s the latest on last Saturday’s collision of Chinese sub and sonar array of a US frigate off Subic Bay. DND has a different story from what the PN spokesman said.


    From Malaya:

    The Arroyo government yesterday sought to downplay the collision last Friday off Subic waters between a United States warship and a Chinese submarine.

    Press Secretary Cerge Remonde said that the two ships were outside Philippine waters when the Chinese submarine reportedly collided with the sonar array being towed by the US Navy destroyer John McCain.

    “There was no provocation involved and we are confident that the issue could be diplomatically resolved by all parties concerned,” Remonde said.

    In Camp Aguinaldo, Defense Assistant Secretary Alberto Valenzuela said that the incident occurred about 125 nautical miles off Subic, near the Scarborough Shoal which is being claimed by the Philippines and China, and which is 123 nautical miles from Subic.

    While the incident occurred inside the country’s 200-mile exclusive economic zone, Valenzuela said foreign vessels are allowed passage in the area as long as they are not out to exploit the area economically.

    Valenzuela said the country’s territorial water is only about 12 nautical miles from the shore and therefore outside the country’s area of responsibility.

    “Our concern is that we must be sure that no foreign vessels enter our territorial waters without authority. We cannot prohibit them from passing through,” he said.

    Valenzuela said the US ship actually came from an exercise between US and the Philippines and passed by Subic to refuel and for other logistics needs before sailing out of the Philippine territorial waters.

    US media reports said US officials are not viewing the incident as a Chinese move to harass ships in the region.- Regina Bengco and Victor Reyes

  61. AdeBrux - June 15, 2009 1:49 am

    Ellen,

    Could be anti-ship weapons (systems)?

  62. AdeBrux - June 15, 2009 1:49 am

    or anti-submarine warfare?

  63. AdeBrux - June 15, 2009 1:51 am

    elen,

    Re: “…US officials are not viewing the incident as a Chinese move to harass ships in the region.”

    My husband tends to agree — nothing to be seriously worried about.

  64. bitchevil - June 15, 2009 2:22 am

    But due to today’s uncertainties, incidents like the above should be viewed with caution. Had the world anticipated the past two world wars, they might have been avoided.

  65. saxnviolins - June 15, 2009 2:48 am

    Can somebody please tell me what’s ASW mentioned in the infromation dissemination article?

    Anti-submarine warfare.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare

    There is an ASW base in San Diego, CA.

  66. TonGuE-tWisTeD - June 15, 2009 3:59 am

    Akala ko yung ASW e Arroyo’s Surplus Warship.

  67. TonGuE-tWisTeD - June 15, 2009 4:12 am

    I was in Subic last April, and I saw about 3 huge unmarked gunboats (don’t know what you call them), not the “kalawangin” types of our navy, just across the Hanjin Shipyard parked just inside the mouth of the cove together with some 14 newly-built commercial vessels.

    Especially after Hanjin set up its shilbuilding factory there, not a few of these armed ships can be seen regularly traversing the Scarborough area. Its tactically sound decision for either China or US to monitor the area regularly. They might just be making sure no vessel is being built by Korea’s Hanjin for its rogue Northern neighbors.

  68. TonGuE-tWisTeD - June 15, 2009 4:13 am

    Slip of The TonGuE:
    “shipbuilding” not “shilbuilding”.

  69. Jake Las Pinas - June 15, 2009 4:15 am

    There is also an ASW school in san diego. A number of our naval officers go there for training.

    US doesnt recognize our claim to the shoals also.

  70. nonongg - June 15, 2009 5:14 am

    The PLA submarines are noisy. They are easily detected. If they used a sonar array to listen, then the PLA submarine is one of the newest (hard to detect). The South China Sea has been the playground of the Russian subs. Now, China is a playing. US Navy ASW (in South China Seas) was diminshed with Cubi’s return.

  71. gapoboy - June 15, 2009 5:46 am

    Ellen,
    ASW means Anti-Submarine Warfare. This is the term they use for submarine hunting and learned ways to counter measures against submarine. The way I see it, USS John McCain (DDG-56) already pinged the chinese submarine via its sonar. They already knew where the sub was. And the chinese sub knew that they’ve been detected already. Since the US were not at war the only thing they could do was to drop their sonar array vice their torpedoes or depth charges against the sub. This was their way of telling the chinese sub you were found. Its an insult for a submarine commander to be found. Your main objective as a sub commander is to stay undetected. This is why the chinese sub rammed the sonar array.

  72. gapoboy - June 15, 2009 5:50 am

    Their is a submarine base here in San Diego, at Point Loma. And the ASW school is at 32nd Naval Base.

  73. filam just passing by - June 15, 2009 7:18 am

    a lot of chatter and conclusions, a lot of experts…focus on helping our country. that’s the only way….

  74. Al - June 15, 2009 7:44 am

    If you do not like the discussion here, hindi ka naman pinipilit pumunta rito.

    It’s not just “chatter”. It’s intelligent discussion which I find illuminating. I may not be able to but in but I enjoy listening.

  75. bitchevil - June 15, 2009 8:29 am

    That Filam was just passing by. He already passed away…he, he. So, let’s continue the discussion.

  76. josé miguel - June 15, 2009 9:51 am

    Re: #60 Ellen – June 15, 2009 1:23 am, published statements of Philippine presidential spokesman and DND deputy secretary on the latest collision of Chinese sub and sonar array of a US frigate off Subic Bay. These two government offices were trying hard to defend the two conflicting foreigners who just committed a common act of invading our sovereignty. Just that simple! They have no problems with being perceived by us Filipinos nor by the civilized world of being public relations agents for the invading enemies. Their only problem is how to balance their image so that one foreign invader will not perceive that the Philippine government is siding with the other.

    The Philippine government has indeed become: happy to be subdued without any fighting; happy to have our territories captured without any siege by the intruders; and happy to have our sovereignty overthrowed without lengthy operations by the Chinese and American intruders in our borders.”

    The two foreign intruders, the Chinese and the Americans have really perfected the strategy of Sun Tzu: “Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy’s troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.”

  77. Jake Las Pinas - June 15, 2009 9:52 am

    Reading the statement of the DFA, it seems that the Philippines had already drop its claim to the shoals. The incident happened within two nmiles of the shoals therefore should have been part of RP territorial waters.

  78. vic - June 15, 2009 12:56 pm

    Of course the U.S. would say that the Chinese incident was not to harass the Ships in the Region,because just like the U.S. it was there just for spying and the U.S. perhaps intentionally drop the Sonar so close to the Sub to let the Chinese Know that their deep sea spying is still lot to be desired…or can still be detected and the U.S. just very happy and will just say, no problem, we will consider the damaged Sonar well worth its replacement…

  79. bitchevil - June 15, 2009 9:17 pm

    Absolutely. I agree with you, Vic. I keep asking the same question: Why are they there in the first place?

    Another concern is the North Artic. You know what I mean, Vic.

  80. norpil - June 15, 2009 9:28 pm

    pinas is a typical banana republic not because of its banana production but because of its production of corrupt politicians and generals, thus producing a military mostly of footsoldiers improperly equipped, an airforce with pilots but no planes to fly, a navy that cannot control its own vicinity.

  81. josé miguel - June 15, 2009 9:57 pm

    These means we are dependent on the sources of our military needs. Who has been the source of our needs? The Americans. Who gains from our dependence on the Americans?

    If we are dependent on drugs, we become submissive to the will of the source of drugs at whatever price. If we are dependent on our military needs, we become submissive to the will of the source of our military needs. Who is the source of our military needs?

  82. vic - June 16, 2009 12:06 am

    BE, yes and the Russian already laid down their Flag underneath, but Canada who also has claims to the North Artic must first build some muscles to assert that claims..and it is doing it right now…it has to have some Subs and a strong presence in the North and not to depend on the U.S. which also may have their own claim (Alaska)of the Artic.

  83. bitchevil - June 16, 2009 12:43 am

    Sorry Vic…does Canada really have the muscles to assert her claim? More than other countries, history gives Canada the most rightful claim on that territory. And yes, Canada depends on the US militarily and shall continue to be…

  84. bitchevil - June 16, 2009 1:03 am

    Speaking of Alaska, that area was never America’s. America like many of her territories took it either by force or money.
    California, Arizona, Texas all used to be Mexico’s.

  85. filam just passing by - June 16, 2009 1:57 am

    #74 #75
    to Al and Bitchevil I’m sorry for offending you, I don’t mean to because I love reading the postings too. What I’m saying is sub warfare is far more complicated than what was posted here unless you are a military personnel that have been posted on one of those subs or sub hunters.

    one thing is that we are all Pilipino who only want good thing for the country.

    Bitchevil, huwag mo naman akong patayin. : )

  86. TonGuE-tWisTeD - June 16, 2009 2:15 am

    filam,
    FYI, there are many military people (both active and retired) who are regulars in this blog, and whatever complicated issues there may be, their informed arguments are most welcome to be shared by ignoramuses like me.

  87. filam just passing by - June 16, 2009 3:57 am

    TonGuE-tWisTeD,

    Thanks for the info.

    And to everybody that I might offended, I apologize.

  88. josé miguel - June 16, 2009 6:58 am

    filam just passing by,

    You just taught me a valuable lesson- humility.

    Thank you!

  89. neonate - June 16, 2009 7:53 am

    Submarines in today’s geopolitics are peeping instruments, although some are capable of launching nuclear tipped ballistic missiles. A seasoned sub skipper knows the tricks of concealment, including the use of thermal layers to evade sonar pings.
    In the cat and mouse game of snoop and counter snoop of military powers, each alternates as the cat depending on a hunch, a sixth or seventh sense and intuition. Being a mendicant power barely able to purchase ammo for its troops, Filipinas can merely contrive a poor substitute, aka Remonde, possessing superb meretricious quality, sprinkled with liberal mendacity, with a kisser perfectly adapted for licking glutes (gluteus maximus to proctologists).

  90. bitchevil - June 16, 2009 8:25 am

    Filam, I meant pass by not pass away. Sorry for the mistake.

  91. josé miguel - June 16, 2009 8:27 am

    Neonate, how you were able to weave together seemlessly submarine warfare technology and tactics with cheap verbal tricks applying mendicancy dynamics, could only be out of sensitive observation.

  92. dandaw - June 16, 2009 10:15 am

    If push comes to shove where would you rather be under the Chinese rule or the American rule? I can assure you the Americans has no plans of invading the Philippines or any country at that. America is there to liberate and free opressed people. Who wants a welfare state anyway. America has enough trouble by itself.

  93. bitchevil - June 16, 2009 10:33 am

    I know you prefer RP under American rule, dandaw. We don’t need you to explain why.

    America has enough troubles…yes. If she has people like Chenney who keeps on bashing Obama. Your Bush is doing better by behaving like a meek lamb. It looks like he is too ashamed for leaving such a huge mess to the new administration.

  94. Jake Las Pinas - June 16, 2009 10:37 am

    neither. They dont have to invade the Philippines, they have the colonial army to do it for them.

  95. bitchevil - June 16, 2009 12:22 pm

    Of course they don’t have to invade the Philippines…they’re already in the country.

  96. neonate - June 16, 2009 7:11 pm

    joe migs, the secret is addiction to the posts here in Ellenville.

  97. norpil - June 16, 2009 7:57 pm

    i think there is no danger any country is crazy enough to invade pinas when they can do whatever to our country’s resources due to corrupt politicians and generals.

  98. chi - June 16, 2009 8:18 pm

    neonate, what happened to your site? I miss reading it.

  99. chi - June 16, 2009 8:20 pm

    Haha! Norpil, that is soooooo true!

  100. vic - June 16, 2009 9:06 pm

    BE, Canada is a Rich Country and it can build its Military if it wants to…that was what I said, Must Build its muscles and the PM is planning to do so, that the military budget has been increased, (besides Afghanistan, which is very expensive)to do just that…But our History will show you that, Canada has never been an agressor but a peacekeeper, until Afghanistan where our troops (we already sacrificed 120 precious lives in that mission) are still fighting a very determined enemy..we are going out soon, come high or low on a fixed date…

  101. TonGuE-tWisTeD - June 16, 2009 11:56 pm

    Speaking of a mendicant security force, I have not totally grasped the recent issues on the shortage of ammo our soldiers have been experiencing in Basilan/Sulu. It may not be a new thing though, recalling Gino Guinolbay sharing his .22 revolver and some bullets at the Basilan Hospital incident.

    What is this recent missing ammo all about? Anyone?

  102. dandaw - June 17, 2009 1:28 am

    Here we go again Bitch. You always find a fight like a 4 year boy. Who mentioned Cheney. He is past. Besides Cheney is by any stretched more honorable than Barack. What kind of news are you listening and reading Bitch? Bago-ong wrapper. Don’t expose your ignorance Bitch it’s not funny. Besides Barack is now tripling the debt of the U.S. He put in $3 million for a turtle tunnel in Florida. Your President Barack is as inutil as your President. Barack pisses off money like a drunken sailor. He appointed all kinds of Czar. His cabinet members are mostly tax cheats and Chicago breed gangster.

    Most of our acquintances that tried to move back to the Philippines came back with horror stories. I believe them. They don’t have reasons to make up stories. You can have all of the Philippines Bitch. I have no desire to live there. Maybe someday you become President of the Philippines and then the Philippines will really be in bad shape and will be in turmoil. Imagine, President Bitch Evil. Just the opposit of Evil Bitch. Got it.

  103. bitchevil - June 17, 2009 2:39 am

    Cheney more honorable than Barack? His (Cheney) ass is more honorable. Full of shit that war freak.

    Vic, Canada’s defense and military build up is long overdue. However, the first ones to object would be the Liberals and some hypocrites from the religious groups.

  104. neonate - June 17, 2009 8:41 am

    neonate, what happened to your site?
    Chi, the author developed writer’s block and rodent (mouse) flu. Recovering though:
    http://neonate28.blogspot.com/2009/06/food-cheaper-than-medicine.html

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