China’s 9-dash line: map without coordinates

A map without coordinates

Although the two Chinese speakers in the recent forum on the South China Sea organized by the prestigious Carlos P. Romulo Foundation with the Institute of Asian Studies ,did not specifically mentioned their country’s nine-dash-line map in asserting the supremacy of their claim over the South China Sea, the subject surfaced several times in the one-and-a half days discussions.

While the Chinese speakers – Zhang Liangfu, first secretary of the Department of Boundary and Ocean Affairs of China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs , and Chen Shiqiu , vice president of China UN Association and China Society of Human Rights Studies -skirted around the nine-dash-line map in asserting China’s claim over the South China Sea, parts of which are also being claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia and Brune with Taiwan making the same over-encompassing claim as China, other speakers were forthright about their criticism about map submitted by China to the United Nations Commission on the Limits of the Continental Shelf on May 7, 2009.

One speaker during the no-attribution session said the nine dash line map “can’t be justified.”

The distinguished Peter Gailbraith, former US ambassador to Croatia and now heads Windham Resources Group, which provides negotiating and strategic services to government and corporate clients, said China’s nine-dash-line “has no basis in international law.”

One speaker remarked, the map, “doesn’t even have coordinates.”

All that the map shows are nine dashes or dotted lines (it used to be more than nine) forming a U-shaped line around almost the whole the South China Sea area, which China claims is part of its territory. The area includes the Spratlys group, a cluster of oil-rich islands disputed by five other countries, including the Philippines.

I asked Chen, who was formerly China’s ambassasdor to Indonesia and former permanent representative and ambassador to the United national and other International organizations in Vienna, if China would be willing to have the issue of conflicting claims resolved in the International Court of Justice or the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, he answered without answering the question, an art which he seem to have mastered.

The motherhood statement about” putting aside the issue of sovereignty over the disputed island and instead embark on joint development” was thrown a lot during the forum.

Someone asked Chen if they are willing to have joint development on Mischief Reef, an island claimed by the Philippines which was occupied by China in 1994. Again, Chen answered without saying anything.

There was a contest among China, Taiwan and Vietnam on the historical basis of their claim which dates to as far back as 16th to 17th century.

But one South China Sea expert said, historical claims can’t be the basis for territorial claims because if that were so Portugal and Spain could re-claim ownership of countries in the world because in 1494 under the Treaty of Tordesillas, they divided all the land on the Earth outside of Europe between the two of them.

Another distinguished speaker was former US Ambassador to the Philippines Frank Wisner, who is now the international affairs advisor of Patton Boggs LLP, a public policy and lobbying firm.

Although Wisner underscored that the views he was articulating was his own, he was echoing statements made by American officials, State Secretary Hillary Clinton and former US Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Wisner said “The right of free passage and freedom of navigation and the orderly and consensual exploitation of the resources of the South China Sea are matters of huge importance to all nations.”

He said “The US is committed to maintaining a robust military presence in Asia and will support its allies. It will maintain capabilities sufficient to deter conflict.”

Quoting Gates, he said, “The United States can be counted in the near future to conduct naval port calls, training exercises and help friends address regional challenges.”

October 24, 2011 7:32 am  Tags: ,   Posted in: Foreign Affairs, South China Sea

59 Responses

  1. MPRivera - October 24, 2011 12:15 pm

    tsk. tsk. tsk.

    para itong kalsadang sinakop hanggang sa bakuran ng mga kapitbahay. hangga’t maaabot ng kanilang tanaw ay kasama sa inaangkin kahit nasa loob ng teritoryo ng iba.

    hindi naman pala suwapang itong china, eh.

    kunsabagay, nasanay sila tubong lugaw mula sa halos laway na puhunan.

    anaknamputang mag-asawang mike at gloria arroyo kasi ‘yan, eh. sila ang nagbenta ng mga sakop ng pilipinas at sila lamang ang nagkamal ng limpak na salapi sa pagpasok nila sa kung ano anong deals sa mga intsik.

    ginawa nilang pulubing busabos ang buong sangkapinuyan habang sila’y walang tigil sa pagliliwaliw at pagpapasarap at ngayong nabubulgar ang kanilang mga kawalanghiyaan ay nagsasakitsakitan at gustong tumakas.

    ‘yung kanilang mga henyong tagapagtanggol, bakit hindi nila ngayon magawang kwestyunin ang ginagawang pananakop ng china sa maliwanag na teritoryo ng pilipinas?

    diyan nila gamitin ang kanilang pagiging bihasa sa batas hindi sa paglulubig ng kung ano anong kasinungalingan sa pagtatanggol sa mga amo nilang kawatan!

  2. piping dilat - October 24, 2011 4:04 pm

    Not to worry ! Not to worry ! Under the able leadership of BS Aquino, we have secured our stake in Spratly using a newest cutter ( it’s a ship ) acquired ( but reconditioned … iiscrap na nga sana nang Kano, nagpagkakitaan pa nang mga damuho ). The PRIDE of the Phil. Navy ! Sigurado, mamamatay ang mga Chinese Navy lulusob doon … sa kakatawa…

    And rest assured , if the Chinese invade, BS Aquino will always go for peace talks and/or gullibly asked the Americans to defend us. Maybe he will go the UN. And with our current prestige/reputation, we will be helped promptly by the UN body ( he-he-he … dream on ). Di ba ang galing galing nang pagkakahandle nya nang mga crisis … like the Rizal Park hostage crisis… kahit wala sya sa scene, marami syang ginagawa… to the point na hindi sya makontact nang highest HK official during the crisis. Bilib ka , ano?

    Hoy FVR, yung pinagbentahan nang Fort Bonifacio para kamo sa AFP modernization program, e anong modernization ang napala nang AFP ? Benta lang nang benta ang nangyari. Walang modernization na maipakita ang AFP ! Greed had claimed a lot of soldiers’ life already. Wala bang nagmumulto sa inyo?

  3. arvin - October 24, 2011 4:56 pm

    Tungkol pala sa MILF kung tutuusin ay kayang talunin. Mag 1 is to 10 lang ay marami pang mga sundalo ang maiiwan. Ibig kong sabihin sa sampung Militar na malalagas ay isa sa MILF ay marami pa talagang maiiwan. Kasi sa Mindanao lang naman ang may MILF. Kaya ayaw mag pa all out war laban sa MILF para sa akin marami ang dahilan. Una WAR IS BUSINESS. Kung walang giyera walang kita ang nakakataas ng ranggo na mga militar na humahawak ng pondo. Pangalawa paano ang negosyo ng gumagawa ng bala, nag susuplay ng pulbura, tapos iyong sa bronze. Di ba malaki ang pondo para sa militar. Kung wala silang uusigin ay wala silang pondo. Maraming pagkakataon ng kapag bakbakan na talaga ang commander ay magdedeklara ng ceasifire na kung hindi nag deklara ng ceasifire ay baka nadaig na ang mga rebelde. Pangatlo siguro ayaw dahil ang mga militar sa ngayon ay kulang sa pagsasanay kasi ang pondo na para sa kanila noong nakaraang adminitrasyon nagkulang o kaya naging abala sa kakurakutan ang nakakataas ng ranggo. Kawawa rin talaga ang mga sundalo na nakikipagbakbakan kasi kung manalo sila ang credit sa commander, hindi sa bawat isa.

  4. arvin - October 24, 2011 5:01 pm

    Ipaglaban ang Spratly dahil sakop iyan ng Pilipinas.

  5. arvin - October 24, 2011 5:02 pm

    Sinulat ko kung bakit war is business http://arvin95.blogspot.com/2011/02/war-is-business.html

  6. piping dilat - October 24, 2011 5:23 pm

    Arvin, ang US ang no.1 arms dealer nang mundo. Kung hindi sya gagawa nang gulo , walang benta nang armas. hindi na nya kayang makipagkompetensya sa manufacturing o di kaya ay lumiit na ang agwat sa technology with China, Korea, and India. So it is possible na in the next decade or so, as it stands, US relevance will diminish significantly lalo na kapag China overtake US as world’s no 1 economy. So sa armas at pelikula ( Hollywood ) na lang may advantage ang US.

    Understandable ba yung mga kabalastugan na ginagawa nya sa iba’t ibang parte nang mundo?

  7. piping dilat - October 24, 2011 5:32 pm

    Arvin, US tried to sabotaged China during the Tianamen incident. The Chinese didn’t fall thru the trap. Otherwise, US would have succeeded in subverting China’s industrialization then.

    Historically speaking, the Chinese are not the INVADING type. Their reaction in South China Seas is more of a SELF DEFENSE strategy against the US.

    On the other hand, it is the West that had been invading and subverting regimes. Maybe it’s about time that we shift our allegiance to China instead of US. At least, with China, there is a chance that they are more into trade rather than occupation unlike a CERTIFIED and BONAFIDE invaders and/or regime topplers such as the US. Anf isang yumayamang bansa ayaw nang gyera. What for?

    We had been siding with the wrong people thru out our history. When do we ever learn?

  8. juggernaut - October 25, 2011 9:00 am

    piping dilat,
    For a while there I had the same sentiments as you do with China. In an earlier lost I mentioned exactly what you are saying about China being not invaders (historically speaking), up until these jokers get drunk and the real sentiments come out.
    We are not better off with the US nor with the CHinese, lets have our country all to ourselves, even if we have to fight to the last man, at least lets keep our dignity.

  9. juggernaut - October 25, 2011 9:01 am

    Philippines for Filipinos!

  10. chijap - October 25, 2011 9:26 am

    @piping dilat

    Tibet

    While I agree that the American nor the West are not perfect, but your justification of China’s action via “SELF DEFENSE” is something you may want to reconsider.

    Think about this: why is America closely watching the world? Simple. Its for their SELF DEFENSE as well. If it was to invade, they would have done so or in retrospect would have not let countries like the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc have their own independence. They would have remain under American jurisdiction or rule.

    Oh, and China needs not foreign subversion. They have a lot of those within the Communist Party. Fact: do you know in China, they never talk about the Tianamen incident? No report whatsoever.

    Eto na lang, why is it that incidents such as the pirates of Somalia, the West intervenes, whereas China has a lot to gain since its the biggest exporter today.

    And you are correct, one of the biggest arms dealer is indeed the US; all five permanent members of the UN Security Council, which includes Red China are however arms dealers as well.

    Following your logic, China also needs to create chaos so that it can sell arms.

    Perspective lang my friend.

  11. piping dilat - October 25, 2011 9:45 am

    Hi Jug, please tell that to BSA and crew. They’re in dire need of someone explaining to them NOT to trust anyone, specially the Americans. What I was just saying is that given a choice between a devil and the deep blue sea, we might as well choose the lesser evil.

    Of course ideally, we should rely on ourselves. Walang tutulong sa Pilipino kungdi mga Pilipino. There is nothing stupid with that sentence, I believe. So let’s hope something right happen to this God forsaken country.

  12. piping dilat - October 25, 2011 10:17 am

    In my honest opinion, the first practical step to solve the problem in Mindanao is to kick the Americans out of that area. Going by the track record, there is no benefit of having them there in the first place. Worst, the MILF even mentioned that they are in contact with the Americans. What else should I think about the motive of having the American presence in Mindanao ? To protect the MILF from annihilation?

    But then again, if BSA start doing just that, the Americans will not take it sitting down. He will be pulled out the way they have done with Erap . Not like Gadhaffi, mahahalatang OBVIOUS ! Pero pag ginawa nya yun, which I doubt, He will at par with CM Recto, Luis Taruc, and other genuine NATIONALISTS.

  13. chijap - October 26, 2011 12:40 am

    Piping dilat,

    Recto was indeed one of the brilliant minds in post war period but Taruc? The very Taruc who supposedly led the Hukbalahap and when the Japanese left, they decide to be terrorist and murders (think Aurora Quezon)?

    Better check your history sir.

    Nationalist doesn’t mean you have to be Communist or Separatist, and forsake anything foreign (support or friendship). Quite funny you singled out the Americans when maybe you should also ask the Malaysian not to interfere in our affairs too.

    The Americans, as imperfect as they maybe, put things in our nation’s favor. It balances out what other foreign threat aimed at us. Without them, can you imagine the arrogance of the Chinese and the Malaysians in our affairs?

    And in my own honest opinion, the real solution is not kicking the Americans out but for the MILF to understand and accept that we are one nation. For them to stop the fight and embrace the potential of having a unified Filipino nation; In short, not to be tempted or listen to the Malaysians.

    And the best way to start is to drop the arms and then build up the area commercially and through reforms of our system.

    Your hatred for the Americans is too obvious. Bawas bawas lang sa paginom ng kool-aid.

  14. ipaglaban_mo - October 26, 2011 4:28 am

    I agree with chijap… Since chijap already explained it with a lot of substance. My brain is limited to summarize it in 4 words: China is a hypocrite… :)

  15. tru blue - October 26, 2011 6:55 am

    “In my honest opinion, the first practical step to solve the problem in Mindanao is to kick the Americans out” – pipi na dilat

    This was what was done to your arse here in this blog, got kicked out (how many, god knows)but somehow managed to camouglaged yourself…at least the americans were invited at face-value and their sanctuary is inside a sovereign Noypi base.

  16. piping dilat - October 26, 2011 8:06 am

    That is correct. Let’s check the history books and study the nature of the HUKBALAHAP ( Hukbong Bayan Laban sa Hapon ). It was a peasant movement in Central Luzon after the defeat of the Americans in Bataan. Wala silang napapala sa mga naghaharing uri kasi. palagi silang api. It was meant to defend the peasants against the Japanese. Luis Taruc refused to be under the American guerilla command, then. The Americans used the HUKBALAHAP just the same and they are instrumental in pinning a significant portion of the Japanese army in Central Luzon.

    After the war and the HUKBALAHAP is no longer needed by the Americans, the Americans refuse to recognize the contribution of the HUKBALAHAP and ordered them disarmed. Preference of course is for the guerilla forces under American control and who will follow American dictum.

    When the Hukbalahap refused, they were branded terrorists and bandits. Aurora Quezon was ambushed by Hukbalahap… but that doesn’t mean that the American led gov’t didn’t liquidate HUKBALAHAP officers who were under their watch.

    After Luis Taruc surrendered to Magsaysay, he retired peacefully and created cooperatives to help the peasant-farmers. I am happy that he died of old age.

    The Bagong Hukbong Bayan ( NPA ) was a revival of the HUKBALAHAP movement in 1969 founded in Hacienda Luisita by the likes of Kumander Dante. But ask BSA about that. He should know better. By the way, Kumander Dante is also following the footstep of Luis Taruc as far as being active in cooperatives, last time I heard.

    Do you know that;

    1) Aguinaldo was so pissed of with the Americans for duping him into handing Manila to American control after doing all the hard work of cornering the Spaniards in Intramuros. Add to that the conduct of the Americans during the Fil Am war ( 1899 – 1904 ) that he welcomed the Japanese into Manila in WW2 ?

    2) Colt 45 was invented by the American specifically to be used against the MOROs JURAMENTADO ?

    3) Water cure as torture mechanism used by Japanese on guerillas was used on Filipinos by the Americans during the Fil-Am War? The Americans did a lot of things to us during that time which could be considered CRIME against humanities.

    4) Manila was the second most destroyed city after Warsaw in WW2 with 100k civilian casualties ? Guess who destroyed Manila? American artillery… and the most of the 100k casualties came from this. The Japanese, cornered and ammo running low cannot do all the massacres attributed to them. But they get all the blame just the same since talo sila.

    5) In 1946, they gave us “independence” but binded us with lopsided treaties like the Equal Parity Rights and Bell Trade Acts… essentially, making us colony once more without the responsibility and expense of running a colony.
    They also insisted in maintaining US bases in the country.

    These are things you can research on your own… please do so… then tell me again why I should side with the US against my own country?

    Finally, just to let you know, in the event that China do invade Spratly, consider this before expecting any help from the US.

    It is CHINESE money that is funding the US economy right now. Malaki ang utang nang US ngayon sa China. Still confident of US assistance?

    I am anti-US gov’t not anti-American per se just to be clear about that.

  17. chijap - October 26, 2011 9:31 am

    My oh my what a lost soul who got to be bought by a lot of false propaganda.

    The Americans did not needed the Hukbalahap? Of course. Wala na nga mga Hapon? The goal at the beginning was to get the Japanese out.

    The Huks needed to be disbanded after the war. Tapos na yung giyera. The Japanese are no longer ruling the country.

    How can you not realize that?

    ** “When the Hukbalahap refused, they were branded terrorists and bandits. Aurora Quezon was ambushed by Hukbalahap… but that doesn’t mean that the American led gov’t didn’t liquidate HUKBALAHAP officers who were under their watch.” **

    What a failure sir, you merely swallowed the very fact you also validated: that the Huks ended up being criminals. The fact is we got out independence, and yet the group persisted. If your own admission should be enough for you to realize that Taruc is not the saint you project him to be, then nothing will as you are blinded.

    ** “After Luis Taruc surrendered to Magsaysay, he retired peacefully and created cooperatives to help the peasant-farmers. I am happy that he died of old age.” **

    Taruc surrendered and was also convicted of crimes against the nation, which included terrorism. He asked to be pardoned by got it not by Macapagal but Marcos in 68.

    (Trivia, guess who recently got pardoned for crimes against the nation’s coffer? Clue: the 13th President of this nation).

    Don’t skip the crucial facts. Taruc was a criminal. As simple as that. And even after he ended his guerilla ways, did we still have the same problem? Yes.

    Because obvious na to Taruc, insurgency was not the answer.

    Aguinaldo has been anti-American, and yes he got into trouble after the American regain the territory. But you do know that the Americans did give us our independence, and guess who was a witness to this? Aguinaldo himself.

    Quite ironic don’t you think that for you to not know the very American government you hate a lot is the very same foreign power (not the Japanese nor the Spanish) who gave us our independence. Aguinaldo knew that. Maybe you should too.

    Colt 45? Check this out: http://goo.gl/6bMFy

    Manila was also rebuilt after the war. You do know we were at war, right?

    And to put things back to your country of choice (China), And you do know that the Chinese killed thousands when they took Tibet, right? That was not even being at war. That was an invasion.

    Another history lecture for you: the last American bases was closed 20 years ago. There was no extension nor did the American insisted there be any new bases. They are happy doing business somewhere else, yet still show concern for our nation.

    The Chinese did prefer investing with out nation through investments such as the ZTE NBN project. A project we all know is riddled with corruption.

    You are actually misguided to say that its as simple to say that its CHINESE money that is funding the US economy. Its actually American purchases which provides CHINESE money to manufacture product with the Billion Chinese Workforce. And why does the Chinese money head back to America? Not because they want control, but because the Chinese have no option for the dollars they have earned.

    They have devalued their money beyond correct market value, that the only place they can invest the dollars they have is back to US economy and bonds.

    In short, for the Chinese to manipulate their currency, they have painted themselves in a corner where their investment is in US Dollars. And if they decide to follow the market value of their RMB, they can’t make their market competitive anymore for foreign investment. In short, they are actually screwed.

    So the next time you think highly of the Chinese, maybe you want to see beyond the red curtain and annual Communist Party applauses.

    In this day and age, no man is an island. You can’t simply say to be Filipino, you have to hate the Americans or the Chinese. You have to be truthful and honest on what foreigners are really after and work around it.

    The Americans have been very transparent. As i have always said, they are not perfect. Now did you ever bother to address my points about the Chinese and the Malaysians? Take time and think what they are really after.

    Lastly, matanong ko lang: the obvious angst against the Americans, baka naman gustong gusto mo lang makapunta ng US at di ka lang makakuha ng visa?

  18. piping dilat - October 26, 2011 12:30 pm

    You might be surprised to know that I went to US several times already on business.

    I still don’t like their foreign policies. Magulang sila.

    If you are a US citizen, I would understand your stand. But if you are a Filipino siding with US against your own country, ewan ko kung ano ang dapat itawag sa yo… Makabayan? Definitely not !

    I understand why there are people like you. The Philippine education is still patterned after the Americans with books in history, obviously done in the point of view of the West ( unless you studied in UP ). We were taught to embrace the American culture and point of view. When I was small, I have the same concept about the world like you. The Americans are the superhero and defender of truth and justice. I was dissuaded to read books done by Recto, Constantino because they were COMMUNISTs.

    But finally, I made a decision to read the messages and not look at the messenger and they made a lot of sense to me.

    Plus with the Internet, you could break free from the traditional “teachings” and find out things not taught to you in school.

    Sometimes you have to go out of your security zone in order to find the truth.

    But if you insist in staying within your safe zone… I will not condemned you…. it is your prerogative.

  19. chijap - October 26, 2011 6:55 pm

    So why do business with the Americans when they are magulang?

    Quite funny you immediately assumed i’m a US citizen. That’s a negative. I have been both to the US and to China in extensive periods of stay and neither are what you say they are.

    And really, a Filipino who keeps things in a right perspective, is already to you a Fiiipino siding with an American and therefore not a Makabayan? How shallow can your thinking be.

    And you are one to speak. Following your same logic, you siding with China (you said so yourself that we should switch ally) is the real traitor to our nation. Its your logic, not mine.

    People can dissuade you from reading. But thats not your problem. The problem you have is you don’t read. You only rely on what was sold/told/peddled to you. Magbasabasa ka naman sir.

    The very Colt 45 story you tried to sell, must have blown up in your face when i provided you that link.

    There are so many Constantino in our history. You babbling about a “Constantino” only shows how knowledgable you are, not. I’m assuming he’s a Communist and as such you’re making him a saint again.

    As i have said, even Taruc realized that communism and insurgency is not the answer. If it was, why would he have surrendered?

    Now show us you are not blinded by also admitting the issues I raised about Red China. I bet, like most Communist loving people i know of, you can’t.

    That’s the difference between you and me. I know what each of these foreign powers are really. You don’t. Your stuck with what you were told with. You are stuck in your own words: “your safe zone.”

    Read about Tibet and then you’d probably be admitting that Communism, Terrorism, and Insurgency is not the answer.

  20. piping dilat - October 26, 2011 9:12 pm

    Chijap, naman… E bakit beer ( Colt 45 ) ang tinting an mo sa Internet ? Hala… Balikan mo ulit…. .45 ACP ( Automatic Colt Pistol ) ….

  21. piping dilat - October 26, 2011 10:05 pm

    Renato Constantino’s ” The Philippines -A Past Revisited ” and “Veneration Without Understanding”

    Teodoro Agoncillo – “History of the Filipino People”

    You will read Philippine History in the Filipino point of view from these books.

    Interesting reading on how the US pacified the Philippines will be;

    Leon Wolfe – Little Brown Brother

  22. chijap - October 27, 2011 12:16 am

    Piping dilat

    Before you recommend others to read, ikaw muna ang magbasa. Pretty obvious naman na ang binabasa mo selective.

    Agoncillo’s history of the Filipino people is a classic read. Everybody who been to a Filipino school/university has read that. But not everyone turned to be an American hater such as yourself. Di porke sinabi ng isang tao ang kano ganito or ganyan, naniniwala ka na agad. Only the stupid will fall for such.

    As for Colt 45, http://goo.gl/dJ694

    You said earlier, the Colt 45 was designed specifically “against the MOROs JURAMENTADO”

    Well the right way of seeing it is that they designed it after noting that the previous army issue gun, the .38 is not effective for determined fighters such as their experience with the Moros. They did not specifically designed it for the Moros. If it was, they would have labeled it as the Moro killer.

    The experience with fighting the Moro made them think of another solution for such a scenario, since their previous weapon is not working. The Americans having that experience knows that they would need this approach down the road, thanks to their experience with the Moros.

    Perspective. For you, its too obvious, basta Americano masama or magulang.

    Now that I’ve raised my points on your arguments; Can you now address my question about Red China to be accountable about Tibet? Your claim that Red China is not an invader, and its all “self defense.”

    As I said, like all Communist-card carrying people that i know, when people raise these points against China – the abuses and injustice this nation does to her neigbors and her own people, all we will hear from you is silence.

    Nasan ang equal and fair denouncement you should have against China?

    Now I wonder, in your own words: “ano ang dapat itawag sa yo… Makabayan? Definitely not !”

    You are running out of arguments my friend. You must know by now that your propaganda is merely puro-paganda ng Communism, a dying ideology that even China is slowly shredding.

  23. piping dilat - October 27, 2011 7:15 am

    Balikan mo lahat ang sinabi ko at basahin mabuti. Don’t put words into my mouth. And if there is someone doing selective readings here, if he does read at all, be honest to admit it. Don’t point fingers. You are supposed to contribute your own opinion / views in this forum and not expect everyone to agree with you. If you expect everyone to have the same view as yours,, go to a support group website. Hindi pagalingan o patalinuhan ” mas marami akong alam sa yo” forum Ito, ok?

  24. chijap - October 27, 2011 7:55 am

    Is that really all the arguments you have?

    Unlike you, I have no expectation that others will take my view. Di ako yung affected, na tulad mo when questioned about your view, di na makasalita.

    I started with the word Tibet, and up to this point wala kang masabi.

    Payong kapwa Pinoy, magbasa ka. Wag lang yung mga librong Made in China or yung mga photocopied by the militante.

  25. chijap - October 27, 2011 8:01 am

    And “yo” is an American slang.

    Ang tamang Tagalog/Pilipino term is “iyo” or “sa iyo”

  26. piping dilat - October 27, 2011 8:49 am

    O sige , papatulan kita for the last time….

    Tibet ba kamo? Eto ang mga kabalastugan na ginawa nang Kano sa sariling nilang bansa …

    They committed genocide by eliminating a huge number of Native Americans and herding them into reservations. You can think of it like “Ethic Cleansing” sa Bosnia.

    They grabbed huge territory from Mexico ( including Texas and California, why do you think most places there have Spanish names ) in the mid-19th century.

    Tibet invasion of China is child’s play compared to what the US gov’t did to the Native Americans.

    Or if you want a much nearer counter example… Vietnam. Over a million Vietnamese casualties. What is reason for killing them ? Liberty and Democracy according to the US. But to the Vietnamese, they are simply fighting for their country and they have nowhere else to go.

    I take back my advice to you to read the books that I mentioned above…. worried ako… baka ma-nose bleed ka.

  27. arvin - October 27, 2011 10:03 am

    Malupit talaga ang China. Sa mapa kita na malayo ang spratly sa kanilang bansa tapos sasakupin. Sabi ng kaibigan ko sana ang bansang China na lang ang tinamaan ng tsunami hindi ang Japan kasi ang bansang Japan ang mga produkto nila matibay. Iyong sa mga gulong lang ng mga pedicad na mula China ilang hindi na umaabot ng dalawang buwan ay papalitan na agad dahil pudpud na. Hindi katulad ng Japan na matibay talaga. Pati na rin ang mga piyesa. Kailan kaya dadating ang araw na ang bansang China ay salantahin ng tsunami na lampas limang poste ang taas at buong China ang masalanta para magtapos na ang panggigipit nila at panlilinlang sa mga consumer ng mga produkto nila.

  28. chijap - October 27, 2011 10:18 am

    Patol? You still did not address Tibet. How can you say papatulan mo ako, eh iniiwasan mo yung topic.

    Tibet is not child’s play. Your talking quite possibly what can happen to our Spratly claim or worst to our country. http://goo.gl/OtZQJ

    The Native Americans were not ethnic cleanse. The Native Americans were in fact given their own space with a good authority on their own community, think of it the original version of China’s one country two system, but without the 50 year limit. http://goo.gl/H7CLJ

    If we follow your logic that the Americans grabbed America from the Native Americans, then wouldn’t that also mean Filipinos or the Mestizos also grabbed the Philippines from the natives tribes?

    The Americans grabbed territory from Mexico? If they did so, then tell us why is there still a Mexico? http://goo.gl/zuPqa

    And lets get to Vietnam. http://goo.gl/U8uCJ and http://goo.gl/URxwd Can you tell us who first invaded Vietnam? And tell us if China did not participate to the instability of the region?

    Now tell us, China is innocent of the millions of Vietnamese dead during the war? Are you blind?

    Now after the war, guess which fellow Communist country Vietnam, after expelling the Americans, has occasional issue with regarding territory: http://goo.gl/2qVI0

    Ironically, guess which western country is Vietnam’s other biggest trading partner today after China: http://goo.gl/Qnnwq

    Which again brings me back to Tibet. The very concept you can’t come to terms with. You shrug it off as if it was a small incident. It is not. It was an invasion. And that can happen to the Philippines especially with you being blinded about China.

    Imagine that, kapwa Communista at ilang beses silang nagkagulo with Vietnam. And you still profess undying love for the nation?

    And please do take back your advice. In fact, use your own advice. Start by reading about Tibet, Communist China, Tianamen, the One Country Two System setup, and then admit to us that you were blinded with your overzealous Communist loving.

    You hate the Americans but to be Nationalistic per your logic, you should also hate the Chinese as well. But you don’t. So you are probably a PRC citizen.

    That’s the difference between the two of us, I don’t hate any foreign partner. I simply tell you what their extend or intentions maybe, and work for or against it.

    Gising na. Tama na ang American bashing because it only shows you are a Communist. It does not show you are a Filipino nor a Nationalist.

  29. piping dilat - October 27, 2011 1:28 pm

    Hi Arvin,

    Re: Chinese product

    My father used to say the same thing about the Japanese products in the late sixties… I can still remember him saying something like, “Relong Hapon quality “, “kotseng Hapon na pwedeng gamitan nang abre lata” … etc.

    But things were different after a decade…

    You also have to take into consideration that most if not all US, Japanese, and EU brand appliances / machineries are “Made In China” … that includes all the Apple products that everyone is crazy about.

    Point is , now China is the 2nd biggest economy in the world surpassing Japan recently. They are now poised to be no 1 in a decade or so… which leaves the US very worried about that. they cannot compete with China anymore in terms of manufacturing since China also has the raw materials. If I am not mistaken, 1/3 of the world’s rare earth elements needed in semiconductor chips are controlled by the Chinese.
    So it’s just a question of when will China surpass the US economy.

  30. piping dilat - October 27, 2011 1:42 pm

    I stand corrected on what I said about the 1/3 of the world’s rare earth elements is controlled by China… The correct situation is that China HAS the MONOPOLY of the rare earth elements world supply at the moment…

    Here is the interesting dev’t on that area…

    http://www.grist.org/list/2011-08-08-forget-china-largest-rare-earth-element-deposit-is-under-this-ne

  31. MPRivera - October 27, 2011 9:04 pm

    now that china is poised to be #1 economy in a decade, sapat na ba ‘yun upang KAMKAMIN ang teritoryo ng mga kalapit bansa?

    hindi ba kasuwapangan ‘yun?

  32. piping dilat - October 27, 2011 9:25 pm

    Whether or not they will move militarily, dapat handa ang AFP.

    E kaso, yung West Pointer na presidente natin na nagbenta ng Fort Bonifacio …. yung pinagbentahan supposedly for AFP modernization, e naglahong parang bula, di ba? May modernization bang nangyari? Wala, pero naibenta na yung lupa. Ang pagkakaalam ko, kakasuhan na dapat yan ni Erap sa mga anomalya ( kasama ang Phil Expo, Urban Bank … ) kaya nga todo suporta nyan sa EDSA 2.

    Balak pa nga ibenta ang Camp Crame at Camp Aguinaldo but hindi natuloy because donated lands ang mga yun na may rider na kapag hindi na gagamitin yung dalawang kampo e isasauli ulit sa mga heirs ng donor… mga Araneta yata yun, hindi ako sigurado.

    Tapos hanggang ngayon, pangalawa sa pinakamalaking budget ang DOD, kinukurakot naman nang mga heneral…

    kung mawawala sa atin ang Spratly, kasalanan din natin yan.
    Iisa lang ang bagong ( reconditioned scrapped ) na cutter BRP Gregorio del Pilar na pwede mong ipangharang sa Chinese navy. At helicopter lang ang pansalubong natin sa mga Chinese MIGS with air to air missile capability na papasok sa area.

    Iyak na lang tayo sa tabi parang batang yagit. Ang gagaling ng mga lider natin, paano…

  33. chijap - October 27, 2011 11:35 pm

    Ellen, waiting for your approval on my earlier post.

    Piping Dilat,

    You are misinformed once again. China does not have a monopoly. Its simply flooding the market by undercutting rivals. In short they are not playing by market rules and again painted themselves in the corner.

    http://goo.gl/ctcnv

    China will potentially surpass the US as the biggest economy. They however will have investment mostly in foreign bonds such as the US dollars, which means they will be dependent on US economy. That would also mean either they play nice by lifting their devaluation of the RMB or they would have to remain begging for consistent American investment.

    Your example of Apple computer shows how shallow your analysis are. Apple outsource the manufacturing to their Chinese OEMs. The silicon valley company pay cheap for labor and also material (which does not necessarily comes from China as a huge part of their devices come from Samsung in Korea and also Sony in Japan or even from Taiwan). The finished product is shipped to the US or globally on a Just-in-time setup.

    Once sold, where do you think the money to buy Apple’s product end up? San napupunta yung pera natin for our iphones and ipads? Not in China. Back to Silicon Valley.

    That is the China Question. Their only advantage is cheap labor and possibly materials because they undercut any other region. If they did not, they won’t have foreign investments to support their billion manpower.

    China and her promoters need (or be open if they know about this) to realize that what they are doing is temporary. The weakness of the Chinese, they don’t innovate, they copy. That alone will not get them too far.

  34. chijap - October 27, 2011 11:43 pm

    “Iisa lang ang bagong ( reconditioned scrapped ) na cutter BRP Gregorio del Pilar na pwede mong ipangharang sa Chinese navy. At helicopter lang ang pansalubong natin sa mga Chinese MIGS with air to air missile capability na papasok sa area.”

    Which is why its an advantage to have the American F18s from their massive carriers in our region.

    Your advocacy of hatred towards the Americans shows that it goes against our nation. Demanding the Americans to leave only puts us where as you said we will be: facing the Chinese MIGs and potentially a Chinese aircraft carrier against our small and decades old small fleet.

    Now i put the challenge back to you piping dilat — you should openly demand the Chinese to get out of our Spratly islands.

  35. chijap - October 27, 2011 11:50 pm

    Piping Dilat

    I just realized your logic is that, if there is no Americans, the Chinese will not invade the Spratly.

    Well, that was the same logic used to say, if there were no Americans, the Philippines will not be invaded by the Japanese during the second world war.

    If i understand your words correctly, then you are dead wrong. Japan wanted the whole region for the regions resources. They went as far as Singapore, not an American colony, during that period.

    If history was to educate you, China is simply using the Americans as an excuse, as what the Japanese did.

    Yes China is definitely contained with the South Koreans, the Japanese, and the US allies in South East Asia. That containment however is not without a reason.

    Their claim for spratly is not because of this containment. Its because of oil. Kaya nga may exploration sila.

  36. piping dilat - October 28, 2011 4:19 am

    Chijap, stop drinking COLT 45 beer before posting anything here.

  37. chijap - October 28, 2011 7:33 am

    piping dilat,

    i prefer red horse. what about you, tsingtao beer?

  38. piping dilat - October 28, 2011 12:40 pm

    Strike 2 ka na, ha…

    http://goo.gl/ctcnv

    Marunong ka bang bumasa nang graph ? You just posted a link that confirmed my statement… Thank you.

    The first time you mentioned Tibet, I assumed that you have read a lot and therefore know a lot.

    You, on the other hand, assumed that I do selective readings or don’t read at all and therefore has a limited knowledge on issues…

    I guess we are both WRONG in our assumptions.

    Let’s leave it to that.

    Ngayon ka pala yatang nagsisimulang mag-research sa WikiPedia… and you could not even do it right. I have to send you back to the right info…

    That Colt 45 fiasco of yours is a dead giveaway… I mean really… Do you really think that the Americans invented a beer brand to fight the Moro Juramentado ? Their strategy is lasingin yung mga kalaban?

  39. MPRivera - October 29, 2011 2:45 pm

    parang labanan ng hapon at intsik ang nangyayari dito, ah?

    ritrit muna. baka madamay, mahirap na.

  40. piping dilat - October 29, 2011 4:01 pm

    MPRivera,

    he-he-he… this forum will be bland and uninteresting if we all are on the same side. So if views of the RED, YELLOW, ORANGE, GREEN sectors can be read here … throw in a few NUTS…. then this will be good for our intellectual growth and political maturity.

    Here is a website that you might want to visit. This will enhance or challenge your views on the current situation of our society ( depending on current political view you are holding now )

    http://filipino.newsvine.com/politics

    My main view on the reason why the Philippines has never gotten out of the shit hole, is because of the ruling elite that had been messing up with the Philippine society since the Spaniards were kicked out. Again, you don’t have to agree with me on that. But do try to test that view.

  41. arvin - October 29, 2011 4:53 pm

    Kahit pa masalanta ng tsunami ang bansang China at hindi na makita sa mapa ang mundo ay makakabangon pa rin sa ekonomiya at mga produkto. Mas gaganda ang mga produkto kasi gawang Japan ang papalit na matibay talaga…ang mga guma ng tricycle, at piyesa matagal bago mapalitan.

  42. arvin - October 29, 2011 4:56 pm

    Nakabangon nga ang mundo sa giyera. Ano pa kung mga produkto lang sa China ang mawawala.

  43. Observer - November 1, 2011 4:44 am

    Photo of a Philippine General: Anong klaseng heneral yan? Dinaig pa nya si Gen. McArthur. Dapat jan ay tanggalan ng ranggo.

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/315836_272847916080500_100000658824411_904079_1841237035_n.jpg

  44. chijap - November 1, 2011 12:18 pm

    @piping dilat,

    Sa dami ng sinabi mo and to a point for you to say “I guess we are both WRONG in our assumptions”, please lang. Ikaw lang yung may maling assumptions. I did not make any wrong assumptions. I’ve always had proof to back up my claim, you zero.

    Quite evident is when i raised Tibet.

    As i have said clearly, where is your strongly worded criticism of the Chinese? when obviously you can not say anything wrong to the last great hope of Communism?

    Do remember, Tibet is an Invasion. How we handle the Spratly Island issue with the Chinese, we can learn from how they handled Tibet.

    And the Colt 45 beer is not even a strike 1. You fell for my little insult. Obviously you are not the bright.

  45. piping dilat - November 1, 2011 8:34 pm

    chijap,

    balikan mo ulit sa Wikipedia yung Tibet history….

    It had been under the Chinese for 2 dynasties. AS far as the Chinese are concerned, kanila ang Tibet. The British tried to hoodwink the Chinese on Tibet, the way they hoodwinked us on Sabah.

    on the other hand, US gov’t has no history of ever holding the vast swath of land they took from Mexico after the Mexican American War in the mid 19th century. After that war, Mexico lost about half of its land to US.

    Again, puntahan mo sa WIKIPEDIA dahil yun lang ang alam mong source of info.

    Asking help from US to counter a Chinese invasion of Spratly is like asking help from a holdaper to protect you from a snatcher.

    Go and enjoy your Colt 45…. he-he-he….

  46. chijap - November 2, 2011 6:51 am

    “AS far as the Chinese are concerned, kanila ang Tibet.”

    Well, as far as the Chinese are concerned, kanila din daw yung Spratly.

    Again, i said earlier: The Americans grabbed territory from Mexico? If they did so, then tell us why is there still a Mexico? http://goo.gl/zuPqa

    “Asking help from US … holdaper to protect you from a snatcher.”

    Since both are criminal to your eyes, why don’t you criticize the snatcher?

    Assuming America is a holdaper tell us why they graceously gave us our independence even if they actually paid for our territory? Para ka palang kabayo sa kalesa, eyes focused on one direction. Yan nagagawa ng too much listening without thinking.

    But i’m glad you admitted that China is a snatcher. That i think the most you would say negatively against your patron state.

    I’ll settle for you admitting your great red state is to your own admission a criminal no better than the US.

    That mean we should not even side with China, diba?

    “Go and enjoy your Colt 45…. he-he-he….”

    You don’t really know how to read. Paki basa lang po kasi i did say i prefer a different brand.

  47. piping dilat - November 2, 2011 10:00 am

    see post #11 above… and READ IT CAREFULLY…

  48. chijap - November 3, 2011 3:14 am

    piping dilat, did you meant that i had to read carefully for your distrust with the Americans?

    That is the sickening part, what you have always presented is purely an anti-American campaign. But when i ask you equally dispel the Chinese who is really the country trying to take over our territory, wala kang anti-Chinese sentiment.

    I then challenge you to THINK CAREFULLY: if it was just between us and the Chinese, do you think we will win?

    Definitely Filipinos should help each other. But seriously, should we not ask international assistance when China is invading us? It is an international concern.

    We may not need to ask American help but definitely we should all in unity demand China to leave our territory.

    Your one-track mind shows your incompetence and bias to the situation. You are not a solution but a part of the problem. Basta wag lang mga puti, ok na.

    Which also leads me to question your true loyalty. I doubt you are with the Filipino nation. If you were, you could have easily said the Chinese should not be in our territory. You have never said such, because you are loyal to them.

  49. piping dilat - November 3, 2011 3:09 pm

    post #11 2nd paragraph… is where I said that we can only rely on ourselves as far as protecting our national interest. Unless you have a reading comprehension problem, I said NOT to TRUST anyone… especially those who have a record of being UNWORTHY of such trust in post #11.

    Your perception of me siding with the Chinese instead of the Americans is a consequence of the statement, ” If it’s (ultimately) a choice between the DEVIL and the deep blue sea, let’s choose the lesser evil. ”

    Post #33 clearly indicates that I think we will lose Spratly if the Chinese move there militarily. And it will also be due to our ineptitude. But we can start to remedy the situation by preparing for it… although the prospect is dim. At least we can make them pay every bloody inch they grab… this is wishful thinking though unless you have a strong navy.

    If your hope of keeping Spratly is to rely on international help, I will say you are dreaming. Nobody will go to war against China for our sake… not even the Americans.

    Heck, the Americans didn’t even support us against the British / Malaysia with our claim to Sabah. Any military pact with the US is useless unless it is their interest. IN the Falkland War, they didn’t support the Argentinians against the British. Argentina had a military pact with the US at that time.

    And the moment the Chinese starts meddling in our internal affairs, manipulate elections, topple regimes not to their liking, tries to insist permanent military presence in our national territory like Mindanao… I will shout invectives at them, if that will please you.

    But don’t ask me to kiss the hands ( or worse, the asses ) of those who screwed us all throughout our recent history. I suggest you don’t also. Let’s keep what’s left of our tattered national honor intact and not be the laughing stock of our Asian neighbors.

  50. chijap - November 4, 2011 1:21 am

    Like always, you are incorrect. My perception is based on this: “Maybe it’s about time that we shift our allegiance to China instead of US.”

    The problem is the person you want us to be an ally is also the very invader we are protesting against. Is that your best logic?

    When I raised Tibet, a topic that we can all learn from, wala tameme ka. You merely shrugged it of a “child’s play.” That is the point, its China invading a place. And as you can see, without any foreign support, that was a walk in the park of which resulted in few thousand dead.

    Again, you are dead wrong, our fellow ASEAN neighbors will help because they know the consequence if they left one member to face the big red machine alone. Vietnam signed a treaty with us recently, just in case your mind is frozen back in the cold war era http://goo.gl/DiBDx

    Yet again you inserted the “Americans.” You say they won’t but history has proven you wrong (they may not win it but they will help). You do know we are a member of the UN, right?

    Its quite funny you want us to forgo American support (which would include American or western military technology). So is it your suggestion that we buy Chinese made fighters and guns? Is it your logic that we buy the weapons from our invaders? Is that the brightest suggestion you can offer?

    Di ka lang pala tan.ga, but you definitely failed in basic logic.

    You said we will lose the war to China because of our ineptitude. That’s true if we follow your advice of shifting allegiance to our invaders and cursing the Americans. In fact, what invasion? It will just be like Tibet. They can simply annex us all thanks to your brilliant suggestion and hatred towards the US/West.

    At that point, di ka na si piping dilat but you should change your callsign to Chinoy!

    My hope for Spratly is that no one touches it. That it is kept as a preserve. We have drilled this earth too much because of energy that we are all fighting over long dead animals or plants. China is in dire need of fuel. Its growing and that addiction is evident. Yes the Americans are addicted as well but they are not the ones invading the Spartly islands. China is.

    (Tayong mga Pinoy dapat maginvest na rin sa renewable but that is another topic).

    Like i always said, the US nor the West are no saints, they have their own shortcomings; but they are not the party to be blamed for this very issue at hand (baka nalimutan mo na, Ellen’s title was: China’s 9-dash line: map without coordinates). China is.

    Its quite unfortunate you don’t get it: you are kissing our invaders ass. You never rejected them, and in fact condone or belittle the atrocities they made. Calling Tibet a mere Child’s play.

    My reminder is simple: China is the issue. Not the Americans. Stop being a Chinese and be a Filipino for once.

  51. piping dilat - November 4, 2011 12:47 pm

    And you have the social graces of Attilla the Hun…

    I am sure that you had convinced a lot of people about your impeccable logic and manners … Congratulations !

    Now run along and don’t forget your medications. Learn from your parent’s mistakes…. SUPPORT the quick passage of the RH BILL !

  52. MPRivera - November 4, 2011 2:56 pm

    bakit kasi hindi na lang tingnan ‘yung mapa sa itaas at kung hindi makita ‘yung lines drawn as proof of irrational and unfounded claim showing unsatiable greed over the areas clearly not belonging to their territory gumamit ng powerful magnifying glass at kung hindi pa rin maaninag ay hilingin sa maybahay kung puwedeng lakihan pa ng another 100x ang presentation.

  53. piping dilat - November 5, 2011 1:21 am

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_strong_are_the_claims_of_the_Philippines_on_claiming_spratly_island_and_sabah

    for posters with the same mindset as that of the Filipino poster in the link above…

    see how he was ridiculed by a Malaysian poster…

    That is how our Asian neighbors see us in general…

  54. piping dilat - November 5, 2011 1:49 am

    Uhmm… Maybe it’s the Malaysian who posted first… And the Filipino poster reacted… Just the same, who seems to have a better grasp of reality?

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